MICHEL MARTIN, HOST:
Some far-right media figures are attacking the Justice Department and the FBI this week over a memo released about the Jeffrey Epstein case. Federal investigators say they didn't find an incriminating client list or any, quote, "credible evidence that Epstein blackmailed prominent individuals," unquote. They also concluded that Epstein died by suicide. This contradicts the suspicions voiced by some inside President Trump's MAGA movement. Tal Axelrod covers what he terms the conservative/MAGA ecosystem for Axios, and he's with us now to tell us more about this. Good morning, Tal. Thanks for joining us.
TAL AXELROD: Thanks for having me.
MARTIN: So I'm trying to understand exactly what people are mad about, and it seems directed at what Attorney General Pam Bondi said early in the administration and what she's saying now. And it seems contradictory. So can you just walk us through that?
AXELROD: Right. This is a movement that has come to believe over the years that there's real meat on this bone. There's something there-there, that Epstein was tied to all these powerful figures and that his death was not a suicide, in they're saying. And then Pam Bondi, once she came into office as attorney general, kind of fed those suspicions. She had MAGA influencers at the White House and gave them this binder with all these supposed details, resulting in that famous photo of these people walking out of the White House waving these binders. Turns out there wasn't a ton of new information there. Then she said on Fox News that the Epstein client list is on her desk and she just has to read it. And then there's no client list, and she says this week in a Cabinet meeting, that's not really what she meant. She wasn't referencing a specific client list. So this is a movement that feels kind of gaslit and that they expected new details. And now they haven't gotten anything that confirms their original suspicions.
MARTIN: And then, you know, also before Trump's return to office, Kash Patel and Dan Bongino called on the FBI to release information about Epstein, they're now in charge of the FBI as director and deputy director. So what are they saying now?
AXELROD: Well, they're also saying that he committed suicide and they're committed to transparency, but they're just telling the people what they found. The difference with Bongino and Patel versus Bondi is that they are both longtime MAGA stalwarts, and they have a much deeper well of goodwill with the movement. And so people are more willing to trust them because they have a preexisting relationship via listening to them in the media.
MARTIN: Oh. So they're - that's why they're not getting as much heat, I guess, as Pam Bondi seems to be.
AXELROD: I think so. And they've also handled it a little differently while in office. While Bondi has kind of teased that more information's coming, Bongino and Patel did that Fox News interview, that joint interview, where they both said, look, we're looking into it. We're committed to transparency, but he committed suicide. You know, they've been a little bit more blunt about it since they've been in office at the FBI.
MARTIN: And the president has expressed support for all three of these folks - for Pam Bondi, Kash Patel and Dan Bongino. But do any of the people who are criticizing these advisers, you know, however much they're criticizing them, do they also hold President Trump responsible in any way for this, for sort of stoking this?
AXELROD: No, not yet. I think you saw some people express a little bit of frustration with how he dismissed the question at the Cabinet meeting this week, saying, you know, he's dismissing an issue that people really care about. But as far as the actual details go, it seems like most of the ire is focused at Pam Bondi and then a little bit less so at Bongino and Patel.
MARTIN: Before we let you go, just as briefly as you can, does this tell us anything about the movement, about where it is and whether there are sort of maybe, you know, fissures opening up that didn't seem to be evident before?
AXELROD: I'm not sure about, like, any long-term fissures. I think, you know, it just goes to show that this is a deeply loyal movement. If you have a preexisting relationship with the movement, that helps. And this is a movement that still really strongly believes in the, quote, "deep state," the government behind the government, or the government within the government. And I think that is also part of why you're not seeing Trump take a ton of the blame, because it's almost a separate entity that he's fighting against on this.
MARTIN: That is Tal Axelrod who covers the MAGA movement for Axios. Tal, thank you so much.
AXELROD: Thank you. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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