Director Kevin Smith's 1997 film Chasing Amy was an enormous financial and critical success, and it continued Smith's meteoric trajectory in the independent film world. The movie generated plenty of controversy, both among the general public and within the LGBTQ+ community. It also saved Sav Rodgers' life. The Kansas filmmaker says the movie helped him come to terms with his queer identity and, through a series of unexpected events, helped him come out as a trans man. Rodgers documents much of this in his new film, "Chasing Chasing Amy," which plays tomorrow at the Tallgrass Film Festival.
KMUW's Fletcher Powell spoke with Sav Rodgers and asked about how the movie took the shape it did.
Interview Highlights
Fletcher Powell: You gave a TED talk about the importance of Chasing Amy to you. And you said, when you came to deciding to make a movie about Chasing Amy, sort of as giving back to the movie and how important it was to you, you said that you were going to focus on the conflicted feelings about it within the queer community. That doesn't completely sound like you initially had the idea to have yourself be a part of the movie.
Sav Rodgers: Fletcher, I can't tell you how much I did not want to be in the movie. But it came about pretty early on in the process, that I would end up in the movie. Little did I know that I would end up being the primary focus of it. And so you're right. What I say in the TED talk is that I'm focusing on the intersection of LGBTQ people and Chasing Amy. And you know, what it means when we react strongly to a movie, what's good media representation? What's considered bad? What does it mean for queer people? What does it say about us? The movie that I had initially imagined was within that scope. And then as I started to recruit more people to the cause to make the movie with me, they were like, yeah, that's a cool idea for a movie, but have you considered your personal relationship to it? And I'm like, well, I gave a TED talk about it. That's my contribution to me being on camera for this conversation. But by the time that we had shot our first day, I conceded to the fact that I would have to be in the movie, at least a little bit. And so the comp that I always used, and still use was Minding the Gap, the way that Bing Liu featured himself in that movie, you know, and how it's not self-aggrandizing. It's just enough to make the story rooted in this deeply personal emotional connection. And it's beautifully done. And it's always stayed with me. That was what I was initially imagining. And so we started to film me more and more, just in case, because you never know what you're going to need in the edits. And, you know, we wanted to make our days and make sure that we made the most of every opportunity that we had. So when we went to New Jersey, to film all the locations where Chasing Amy was shot, I would put myself on camera in about half the shots of like, okay, just in case we need this B-roll. When I would do interviews, starting in Los Angeles, I started filming myself asking the interview questions, just in case we ever needed to cut away from me-- or, to me, rather. And, effectively, when we got to the edits, me and everybody else, we were like, okay, well, let's put together the movie. And what we found is that we had this embarrassment of riches in terms of footage. And we had to narrow the focus, and what eventually came about, despite me, you know, feeling vulnerable, and feeling exhausted at the idea of this and the self-reflective process, is that I had to be in the movie as the main character. And I was persuaded by our editor, Sharika, our AE, Lauren, and all of the rest of the producers: We're here for your specific story. And so, that's how it came about that I ended up being the primary participant in the movie. I had to listen to what the people around me were saying, but also what the story was telling all of us. And the story had changed. And the scope had changed since day one. And I think with any documentary, the story is bound to change and evolve over time. And, you know, I'm ultimately happy in the end with the results, but the process was pretty emotionally grueling. And so I'm thankful that I had the amount of support that I did, in the way of all of the brilliant people who made the movie with me.
It does end up being pretty drastically important that you are the focus of the movie. And it's kind of remarkable that what you're describing to me, we do kind of feel that journey through the movie. I think you probably intuit that it is a little bit fraught to make a documentary these days that is, "Here is my journey," right? Because this is what a lot of people are doing, and probably why you didn't want to be part of the movie to begin with. But you can feel, as the movie goes on, that it does become more clear to you that this is very much your journey.
100 percent. I mean, again, I had always anticipated being in it a tiny bit for the emotional resonance to exist, because I know that, you know, what Andrew Ahn says at the beginning of the movie in his talking head interview of like, Chasing Amy, despite what anybody feels about it, it saved your life. And that is an undeniable thing. And that's how I always approached it of like, well, everybody has their own respective truths with Chasing Amy and this is mine. You know, I'm glad that you felt that way watching the movie because that's exactly what I wanted to show was, how the scope changes over time, how the journey changes over time, and what it means to kind of come of age against the backdrop of something even as an adult, right? So, I'm glad that you got that out of it.
There is a pretty profound shift in the movie when you interview Joey Lauren Adams, who played Alyssa in Chasing Amy. And she talks about a lot of things I certainly didn't expect, because I hadn't thought of it. We'll just say she had some very painful experiences associated with this movie that meant so much to you in such a positive way.
Totally. Yeah, I mean, she gives an incredible interview, where she's extremely honest about her experiences, experiences that I won't try to paraphrase or anything like that, she very eloquently speaks for herself in the movie. And it was surprising to me, because, you know, it is such a shift in what my preconceived notions were about that time. Because, keep in mind, if you had research something for 10 years, and then the person you were talking to says, actually, I didn't have this experience on it at all, you just kind of have to sit there and listen and bear witness and shift your thinking in the moment, which can be difficult. I always think of feedback as a gift, right? If somebody trusts you with their truth, and enough to be honest with you, I think it's important to listen as much as you possibly can. And so that's what I tried to do in the moment is just listen to Joey, because she had some really valid, pointed critiques of the entertainment industry, and some incisive reflections on her time making Chasing Amy, and for that, I'll always be grateful to her for that honesty. Because it not only changed the direction of Chasing Chasing Amy, it also deeply changed me and the course of my life and the direction that I was going. It's invaluable to hear that truth and to receive it. What can you do in that moment, but listen, and try to rise to the occasion when somebody challenges you in that way?
That has to be a difficult thing really to wrap not just your head, but your feelings around, to to meet somebody who has such difficult feelings associated with something that is so positive for you.
Yeah, I mean, but in that moment, when we're talking, it's the final thing that I think I need to realize, like, Chasing Amy is not mine, and it never was. It's something that is still incredibly important to me, and has been important to me, and will remain important to me. And so, it challenged me in a way that was really important of how do we allow these things to all exist simultaneously? How do we allow for multiple truths to be there at once. And so Joey's experience is hers, and I have nothing but respect for that, and my relationship to Chasing Amy changed that day, when I had to be reflective about, okay, what's the path I'm going down now, and does this moment necessitate my relationship to the movie change? And you can see by the end of the movie how it does.
Your relationship to yourself really seemed to change too, or at least as it's presented in the movie. You came out as a trans man. And that is something that you had felt, it appears, for a good while but had not publicly said. Did it happen that way? Did that interview have that much effect?
Yeah, I mean, imagine, through the process of making a documentary, that the people you've admired for a majority of your life at that point, are opening up about vulnerable things for themselves. They're opening up about the process of making this thing that you cherish. And it's a thing that, in the case of Chasing Amy, that had this very formative, was this formative experience for me, a foundational experience of my life was loving that movie. And so, you're hearing them as real people, not the people who you perhaps imagine them to be, as real people talking about their real lives and their real experiences. It is challenging to not match that vulnerability, if you're me. And so you're in this space, it's intense conversation for hours, doing these interviews. And for me, I think Kevin had built a lot of trust with me, as I hoped that I built with him, for him to tell me the truths about his life. And he, off camera, just asked me, like, "Hey, I just want to make sure I'm getting your like pronouns right." Like, you know, he called me Sav, he wasn't using my deadname at the time, even though at the time there was nothing wrong with using my deadname. And, you know, he just very politely asked off camera. And I'd been there all day with him, we'd been talking, we'd been talking about some of the most vulnerable moments of his life, most personal aspects of his life. And so, I just decided to be vulnerable right back. And also, I was having these conversations in parallel with my wife, Riley-- my then girlfriend, fiancee, I don't remember the total timeline, and also my parents and my loved ones. Also, when you move to Los Angeles, there's this thing of people are so polite, and they always ask you your pronouns. And as somebody who was publicly gender nonconforming then, I didn't really want to answer that question. Because, you know, I had known for a long time that I was trans, but as you can see in the climate we have now, and also the climate that we had back in 2019, when I'm doing these interviews, the world is not friendly to trans people, was not friendly to trans people. You know, I didn't see a lot of trans people succeeding in film, the way that I aspire to, even currently. And so, it didn't feel like there was that sense of safety. So, in that moment, where I come out to Kevin, it's almost like his reaction is giving me permission to be myself, right? And through the most unlikely of scenarios, Kevin Smith helps me come out, not just once, but twice. First time, indirectly, the second time, quite directly. And that is so unlikely, but so true. And what you see is really what you get there, in that interview.
Do you think that part of your experience with this movie-- talking to Joey Lauren Adams, talking to Kevin Smith, and being that vulnerable and seeing their vulnerability, too, and knowing that maybe their feelings about something are very much not what your feelings are, or not what you expected-- do you think that that has affected the way you interact with other people, just in general, in your life? Or, have you always been a person who's sensitive to the feelings of other people and the fact that they are probably hiding some things that you don't know about?
Yeah, I think so. For me, I was always like a really sensitive kid, always wore my heart on my sleeve, it broke my mom's heart every time I would get my feelings hurt, because I never learned the lesson that you shouldn't just like, put your heart out there all the time. By the way: not perfect, I do not always read a situation 100 percent correctly. But I like to think over the course of my life, I've honed those skills, to be able to just kind of meet someone where they're at. And so, yeah, it was a very interesting experience, doing these interviews of just lik-- the Joey interview is a perfect example of, like, I went in thinking it was gonna be one thing, and it turned into something else, and you kind of have to adjust in the moment. And so, I think this experience has not only changed my perspective on, do I care if somebody doesn't like the movie I like... not really. This experience has really shown me that my opinions are truly my own. And that a relationship with a movie or any kind of form of media is extremely personal. And if you can find people to bond with over that, or to have discourse with over that, that's productive and fun for you, I love that. Or to challenge your thinking. I absolutely love that. It has absolutely changed the way that I interact with famous people. I don't know how you can go through this experience and not have that be something, right? Of just like, okay, so this is what I thought fame looked like from the outside at the outset of this experience. And now I have a better understanding through these conversations of, you know, what it means to be known for something. And the feelings that come along with that. Yeah, so I mean, it totally changed those interactions I have in my life, but also, you know, being on the other side of this and talking to people about the movie, you know, when people come up to me afterwards, and for the most part, people have been so kind when they've come up to me-- no one's been like, "I hate the movie," to my face, which is appreciated, I guess. But when people are having these moments with me, in the way that I was having with Joey and Kevin, now it is continued perspective of, you know, people who will come out to me after a screening. People who will tell me what the movie meant to them when they watched it, people with tears in their eyes, just, like, hugging me. Now, I understand what it's like to be on the other side of that much more than I did at the outset of this project. And I'm infinitely grateful for those experiences, and for that perspective. And so every day continues to be a school day in the life of Chasing Chasing Amy.
What a thing. Just real quickly, I guess before we have to go, I'm kind of interested in your filmmaking. Did your approach or maybe the things you were interested in as a filmmaker change as a result of this movie?
100 percent. Making Chasing Chasing Amy has narrowed my focus immensely as a filmmaker. You know, you go into a project and you go-- I'm a very goal oriented person for context. I'm a goal setter, I'm a goal achiever, and I change goals when needed, but I know the direction that I would like to be going as a creative person. And so for this, I really had to surrender to the fact that I have no control. Like, about anything. Like, in the world I have no real power. I have no real, you know, I'm a guy who likes making movies, and I love connecting with people and I love building friendships with people, and I love telling stories, you know? And, so, one, it totally changed my filmmaking style and made it more focused, two, I made so many mistakes on this that I would not repeat again. And so you know that experience hopefully turns into wisdom as I continue forward, and will hopefully make the next movie easier to make and not take five years. But also, you know, to become more focused and to be able to advocate for what I want and what I need on a project and also how to collaborate more effectively, how to lead a team. So much changed over the course of making Chasing Chasing Amy over the last five years. I'm way more confident in my point of view as a filmmaker now. I know how to deal with conflict resolution a lot better, just like very practical things that aren't sexy, but allow for the workplace of a film to run in a more dynamic, cohesive fashion. But, my point of view as a filmmaker has definitely become more focused, more specific. And now I can go into meetings and say, no, this is the next movie I want to make, and here's why. And here's the data to back up my argument for why I think this is a great movie to make next and why people will show up to it, even if they're not LGBTQ. And here's why I think LGBTQ people will show up to this movie, etc. I just learned so much about the business of filmmaking, the craft of filmmaking, and it made me fall deeper in love with cinema, which is incredibly exciting. And reinvigorating, as I kind of exit this project at a certain point, right? It's weird to think that Chasing Chasing Amy is no longer a thing I'm making, it's now a thing I made. Like, that's wild to me. And so I'm excited to enter the next phase of making something and seeing the adventure that comes with that.
Do you have-- this is a terrible question, but I kind of want to know-- Do you have, like, a style that you could articulate as far as your filmmaking goes? And I'm not talking about Chasing Chasing Amy, because that's a very particular thing. But in terms of the kinds of movies that you want to make?
I want to continue making movies that are optimistic, and fun. I love that. I think you can tell like a highly dramatic or comedic story within that. But I'm always trying to come to a place of, where's the sense of adventure, where's the sense of optimism? Because it's hard to have optimism right now. It's hard to imagine that the world could be better or, you know, or to make the version of the world that you wish existed. I love that. And I also think I have a fairly commercial sensibility. And so, combining the fun queer stuff, the optimism, and a commercial sensibility, I think if you put that in a blender, that's the kind of stuff that I'm interested in making right now. And that's the kind of stuff that I hope comes next.
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